450 versus 45-70?

I know of one so far, let's see if more show up.

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450 versus 45-70?

Postby Escape Pod » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:23 am

New guy here.

My wife and I are planning a camping trip to Alaska this summer, and I’m looking for a rifle that I can use for both bear protection there, as well as deer hunting in Ohio. Something fairly compact, but powerful. I grew up in Alaska, and spent a lot of time on the classic 30-06. But I haven’t shot a gun in a while so it’s time to start dusting off those marksman skills.

Initially my search led me to the Marlin 1894 Trapper In 45-70. But those are hard to find (and expensive). It sounds like that company’s been through the spin cycle the past few years.

So imagine my delight when I discovered the .450 Bushmaster cartridge and the RAR. Heavy bullets, straight-walled cartridges, and the same bear stopping power as a classic guide gun round like the 45-70. Or so I thought.

Recently I was reading in another forum that the 30-06 with a 200 grain bullet actually has more energy leaving the muzzle than the 450 BM.

If I was trying to stop a charging bear at 50 yards, would a 30-06 actually be a better choice than a 450?
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Hoot » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:25 am

Escape Pod wrote:New guy here.

My wife and I are planning a camping trip to Alaska this summer, and I’m looking for a rifle that I can use for both bear protection there, as well as deer hunting in Ohio. Something fairly compact, but powerful. I grew up in Alaska, and spent a lot of time on the classic 30-06. But I haven’t shot a gun in a while so it’s time to start dusting off those marksman skills.

Initially my search led me to the Marlin 1894 Trapper In 45-70. But those are hard to find (and expensive). It sounds like that company’s been through the spin cycle the past few years.

So imagine my delight when I discovered the .450 Bushmaster cartridge and the RAR. Heavy bullets, straight-walled cartridges, and the same bear stopping power as a classic guide gun round like the 45-70. Or so I thought.

Recently I was reading in another forum that the 30-06 with a 200 grain bullet actually has more energy leaving the muzzle than the 450 BM.

If I was trying to stop a charging bear at 50 yards, would a 30-06 actually be a better choice than a 450?


welcome aboard OM!

There is context to your question. When the 450b was introduced and for the "Lion's Share" of its existence, it was an AR platform caliber. That limited its power to what an AR bolt would allow. The post you read could be from back in that period. Even under the constraints of an AR bolt, it can safely push a 200gr Barnes bullet as fast, if not faster than most non-Plus P 30-06 velocities using a 200gr bullet. IE, 2500fps
Fast forward to the bolt action and to a lesser degree, single shot platforms and with their stronger bolts, they can eclipse the 30-06 with both rifles using a 200gr bullet. The key word there is the 200gr bullet. The 30-06 does much better with a 165 or 180gr bullet. The RAR can safely push bullets faster than an AR platform as witnessed by many reloading reports here over the past few years. At issue may be the difference in performance between factory ammunition and what can be achieved when you reload. I would put the 450b in a bolt action, pushing a hand loaded Barnes 275gr TSX bullet, up against any creature native to North America.
The issue with the 45-70 is the fact that ammo manufacturers have to produce products that may be used by uneducated people, in a rifle that might be 148 years old which was never designed to compete with modern 45-70 rifles. There again, hand loading can safely achieve greater performance.

To summarize, this caliber's performance can be unlocked by using handloads that are developed over time for your RAR. Now, despite my love for this caliber, if I didn't reload and was going to AK and would be in a possible situation where I needed to stop a charging adult grissly or become its lunch, I'd probably opt to take a magnum class caliber instead. Life is short!

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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

Imagine for a moment. The Taylor KO value of a 375H&H delivered in a semi-auto AR15 platform for a charging bear in Alaska.
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Escape Pod » Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:23 pm

Hoot, I can’t thank you enough. You explained that so clearly that even I understood it.

So if I was hand-loading and could put a 300 grain bullet into a .450 cartridge, I’m even with the 45-70. If I’m restricted to store bought ammo (e.g. Hornady 250 grain FTX at 2200fps), I’m closer to the “iffy-on-a-grizzly” 30’06 power than a dinosaur-killer like a Winchester magnum or a 45-70?
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Escape Pod » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:09 pm

Running some muzzle energy calculations, a factory .450BM (250gr at 2200fps) puts out 2,687 ft/lb at the muzzle.

A 45-70 (430gr at 1,781fps) puts out 3,028 ft/lbs. So that is at least 10 percent more power.

A .300 Winchester Magnum (150gr at 3200fps) puts out 3410

Just looking at the numbers, even a 30-06 (180gr at 2700) puts out 2,913ft/lbs.

In practical terms, is there anything about the size of the bullet that improves its stopping power? Say, if the shot was less than perfectly placed? Or is a smaller 30-06 bullet traveling fast just as good as a larger 450 BM traveling slower?
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Hoot » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:21 pm

Escape Pod wrote:Running some muzzle energy calculations, a factory .450BM (250gr at 2200fps) puts out 2,687 ft/lb at the muzzle.

A 45-70 (430gr at 1,781fps) puts out 3,028 ft/lbs. So that is at least 10 percent more power.

A .300 Winchester Magnum (150gr at 3200fps) puts out 3410

Just looking at the numbers, even a 30-06 (180gr at 2700) puts out 2,913ft/lbs.

In practical terms, is there anything about the size of the bullet that improves its stopping power? Say, if the shot was less than perfectly placed? Or is a smaller 30-06 bullet traveling fast just as good as a larger 450 BM traveling slower?


Are you familiar with the Taylor Knock Out (TKO) approach to calculating the lethality of a given diameter bullet, for a given weight, traveling at a given velocity? The main factor it brings to the table is bullet diameter. Essentially, two bullets of the same weight, traveling at the same velocity, the one with the biggest diameter, will do the most harm. Kinda makes sense in one's mind's eye.

Here's a LINK to the calculator.

If you plug in the .452 diameter for the 200gr Barnes XPB traveling at 2500fps (AR platform safe) and compare it to a 200gr .308 bullet traveling at the same velocity, you can appreciate the value of fatter bullets, especially if the circumstances under what they are fired, does not lend to a perfectly placed POI. The TKO comparison mainly plays into the scene when distance is not too great, due to Ballistic Coefficient. Long, slender bullets reign supreme as distance increases. My 450b is what I grab for woods hunting where shots in excess of 50yds are hard to come by.

Based upon the examples you cited, you appear to be leaning toward factory ammo, not hand loads. The Hornady 250 FTX factory ammo is held back to make sure it doesn't overwhelm the bolt in AR platforms. Folks hand loading that bullet for a bolt action can chime in any time now, about how much faster it can be safely loaded in their platform, which directly contributes to both ME as well as TKO.

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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Escape Pod » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:47 pm

I was not familiar with the TKO approach. But it squares with some of the experiences I’ve been reading about, that at close ranges (under 100 yards when the bullet is closer to muzzle velocity) the size of the penetration makes a big difference.

Punching in the same numbers as above for the 450b and the 30-06, you see how TKO method flips things on their head.

B48ABCEC-B5FD-424E-8CC2-13E7C11D1F50.jpeg
450 Bushmaster with factory load
B48ABCEC-B5FD-424E-8CC2-13E7C11D1F50.jpeg (61.21 KiB) Viewed 5654 times


9209CD1E-3AD0-43F7-96F0-04896BD8638E.jpeg
30-06 comparison
9209CD1E-3AD0-43F7-96F0-04896BD8638E.jpeg (57.56 KiB) Viewed 5654 times
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Escape Pod » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:12 pm

Playing with TKO some more, the 45-70 was predictably no slouch in this department, serving up a huge TKO score. The big shocker was the 300 win mag. At the same 180 grain bullet, the win mag rings in with a TKO barely better than the 30-06.

Taylor’s calculator (and maybe the bear’s internal organs) clearly weigh the size of the bullet much more than muzzle velocity/energy.

8D2D5009-A1FF-4704-B8BA-6B1E2BCCA6DE.jpeg
45-70
8D2D5009-A1FF-4704-B8BA-6B1E2BCCA6DE.jpeg (81.79 KiB) Viewed 5652 times


0A7436DB-9544-4968-BE8E-75F56E0AE954.jpeg
300 Win Mag
0A7436DB-9544-4968-BE8E-75F56E0AE954.jpeg (108.61 KiB) Viewed 5652 times
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby s4s4u » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:52 pm

Bigger holes hurt more. Muzzle energy in itself is a poor indicator of lethality. When it comes to dangerous game, penetration is key, and in general, larger heavy bullets will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets that are travelling at a much faster rate of speed. A body in motion......and all that......

You will see a lot of 12 gauge slug guns carried by guides in brown bear country, as well as the big bore levers in 450 Marlin, 444 Marlin, 45/70, et al.

This is not by accident or coincidence.
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Re: 450 versus 45-70?

Postby Escape Pod » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:22 am

This guys’s experiment with penetrating brush using different cartridges would seem to agree. Those flat heavy bullets punched through some pretty thick branches and stayed flat.

https://youtu.be/P5dve7vAY9I
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