The quest for a bear defense round.

[Escape Pod]

***Not sure these musings about ammo belongs in Bolt Action, but it's not about reloading so....

The original reason I picked up the Bushmaster wasn’t to hunt deer in Ohio. It was to find a rifle that would work for brown bear defense when camping out west and not take up a lot of space while doing it. My search initially led me to a classic guide gun like the 45-70 Govt in something like a Marlin lever action. But Marlin was going through some changes, and it was out of my price range anyways. So I settled on the Ruger Ranch in Bushmaster.

Since then I’ve learned some things.

First, I want to hunt deer in Ohio. And lots of stuff down south and out west.

Second, based on my research, bear spray is probably a better bet for an up close bear encounter. A bear can close 20 yards in 3 seconds, even through thick brush. And even after a lethal wound to the chest, an animal still has as much as 10 seconds of adrenalin before it succombs. But since I own the gun, and redundency is always a good idea, I decided I should probably have 20 rounds of “just in case” life insurance against dangerous game.

My search for the right bullet for bear defense led me to this study of terminal ballistics. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ball ... nding.html

In it, he joins Ron Spomer, Chuck Hawke and others in debunking the myth of knockdown power. It’s nerdy as hell, but if you look through his data he’s got the evidence to back it up. Basically, barring a perfectly placed central nervous system shot it’s all about shutting down the cardiovascular system and causing the animal’s blood pressure to fall to zero. For dangerous game with thick hide and shoulders, a big but slower-moving bullet like ours needs to dial down bullet expansion in order to maximize penetration.

This led me to this round, Buffalo Bore’s non-expanding (therefore, deeper-penetrating) 360 grain bullet.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=540

Another bullet I considered was the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator. There are still a few boxes out there of their 245 grain bullet loaded by Underwood in 450 Bushmaster.
https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ammunit ... tor-20-pk/

But ultimately I decided on the tried and true heavy, hard-cast, flat-nosed Buffalo Bore round.
I only bought one box because I don’t plan on hunting brown bears and I hope I never have to kill one in self defense. But there is a special feeling that comes from having a couple rounds tucked in my buttstock ammo carrier that can stop any predator that walks the earth today. And possibly put a serious hurt on a TREX’s feelings right before he eats me.

This is an amazing gun.

[Hoot]

Good points throughout but ask yourself why the pros don't use autoloaders against dangerous game. I love my AR based 450b but with all due respect, it would not be my "me or him" choice against a brown bear. Murphy is way too creative.

FWIW and IMHO, those 245gr Xtreme Penetrators are da-bomb!

Hoot

[Al in Mi]

If you handload and can find the old 325gr Barnes Busters, that would be a good pick. But both you listed would give me some piece of mind, just make sure they feed from the mag when operating the bolt faster than normal.

[Hoot]

Good points throughout but ask yourself why the pros don't use autoloaders against dangerous game. I love my AR based 450b but with all due respect, it would not be my "me or him" choice against a brown bear. Murphy is way too creative.

FWIW and IMHO, those 245gr Xtreme Penetrators are da-bomb!

Hoot

Not sure how I missed that you are using an RAR. That's a problem with posting late at night, through tired eyes.

If you haven't seen my Range Report on the 245 Xtreme Penetrators, it's Here

Hoot

[Escape Pod]

That's some amazing shooting there, Hoot. There's no way Underwood or any other loader could improve on that. Or my own marksmanship, for that matter .

Would love to see a penetration test, but following the intuition of the wise ones the higher velocity of that Lehigh XP's 245 grain should help make up for its lighter weight compared to something like the 360gr Buffalo Bore, which lumbers out of the barrel at around 1700 fps.

Firing blind, so to speak, I decided to go with the bullet style I had data for--the hard cast flat-nosed bullets.
https://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballist ... PEN_tablez

But if I ever decide to quit my life and guide full time in the Western wilderness, I may have to organize a proper shootout between these bullets.

[plant_one]

Would love to see a penetration test, but following the intuition of the wise ones the higher velocity of that Lehigh XP's 245 grain should help make up for its lighter weight compared to something like the 360gr Buffalo Bore, which lumbers out of the barrel at around 1700 fps.

the kicker is - with that peticular bullet design - velocity isnt the only factor. its about the hydrostatic shock that nose profile is going to induce on impact. so not only being smashy/penetration wise, but the massive tissue disruption.


look what the 140gr 357mag version of the bullet does in gel out of a 2" snubnose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-JmzXF6Zk

[Escape Pod]

Very impressive!!

[plant_one]

Very impressive!!

right?

and consider - due to barrel length.. thats maybe 1200 or 1300 fps mv.

throw another hundred+ grains on there, crank the velocity up to 2100-2200 range in the 450 bushmaster.... you gotta be getting into territories

with a 2100 fps MV... at 50 yards that bullet is still carrying 2033 ft/lbs of energy.
25 yds is 2232 ft/lbs.


and again - thats without really taking into consideration the bullet profile and engineering that goes with it.

[coyote wacker]

I guided bear hunters for over 45 years only twice did I need protection....one time a hunter shot a bear at last light and it needed tracking we tracked the bear with flash lights and can upon it with a very large bear eating it and it didn't want to leave throwing large sticks and 3 people got it to move off to drag the bear off....
The second time I was running baits by myself I always carried a S&W 629 44 mag or 45 Colt Mountain Gun in a cross chest holster when running baits that day I was late coming from town and had my Kimber 45 ACP on me and had a bear run at me and I shot it twice once between the eyes and once behind the skull in the spine it was dead at my feet....
When I tracked bears for clients I preferred a Remington 870 but used a Benilli 12 ga. the last 15 year I guided .....loaded with plain good slugs with a 18" barrel ....I used it several times to shoot wounded bears over the years....slug are very deadly at close range and put a bears down in its tracks.....
Bottom line is if your going to shoot a bear and don't have a permit it better be at your feet when you fire the first shot....you will be prosecuted by Fish And Game for poaching other wise....

[Escape Pod]

That is tremendous experience, Coyote Wacker. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I'm curious about the choice of shotgun slug. Your "decision" (instincts and skill under extreme pressure) to go with a head shot to the bear makes good sense to me for the kind of close in action you describe. I don't know anything about slugs. Obviously they don't have the accuracy fudge factor of shot. Do they penetrate all that much more than a large caliber rifle such as ours?