Interesting read regarding bullets

[Siringo]

I came across this article will perusing the net on bullet performance on deer. Since I have owned the 450B, I mainly follow performance of the projectiles via muzzle loader sites, since we use common projectiles and the same velocities. Plus the MZ guys shoot lots of deer, like to share their experience, so for me it is a good baseline.

Not saying this is gospel or anything, just another opinion.

http://randywakeman.com/EnergyTransferandBulletBullistics.htm

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Intriguing read.... However, IMPO, it left me feeling sort of hollow. (No pun intended). What I mean is, it says that Taylors' KO theory which is based on the language of math is erroneous, FPS & FPE formulas, and ballistic gelatin tests are all erroneous, yet he leaves me with his touchy, feely, subjective vague opinions. The pig flesh tests proved one thing to me. A 223 Remington WILL KILL a deer dead. And the 22 rimfire wound channel is about the same as a nice sharp broadhead. And I've KILLED with a broadhead and the deer didn't even know she was hit much less that this kid was was even in town. She kept nibbling a corn stalk after my arrow went clean through her and stuck in the dirt.bbut that a different story...
I do not look at Taylors' Theory alone. Now if this guy is saying he uses ALL ballistic theories in concert with his personal and subjective perceptions to judge the killing ability of a projectile, I can dig that. But I'm not about to throw out Taylors theory just because the guy was a poaching A-hole. And I believe I am intelligent enough and grounded well enough, and have enough experience doing "autopsies" on the deer and other wildlife I have legally harvested, and have also spent enough time on the streets as a Firefighter/EMT, treating GSWs and a plethora of other injuries, to know how to interpret any data available to me regarding terminal and external ballistics capabilities of whatever I decide to make "ballistic" within the confines of my legal and moral limitations. As for me, I will continue to use any ballistic theory available to me and incorporate that tool in with all my other experiences and tools. This includes Taylors' KO, and any knowledge I can get my hands on. And I keep my BS filters turned on at all times.

[BayouBob]

If I want a sermon I'll go to church. I was waiting for Wakeman to pass the collection plate at the end of the article!

[rohk]

If I want a sermon I'll go to church. I was waiting for Wakeman to pass the collection plate at the end of the article!

agreed

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I would never want to intentionally offend anyone, but guys and gals, Poachers are as much a threat as PETA terrorists. Poachers give dangerous ammunition to the "Antis". Taylors' KO theory may have been one of the only "positive" things that he was responsible for, but that does not justify his illegal activities. It is unfortunate that his reputation for poaching has caused folks to mock and discredit his theory, but when you see the 'big and slow' theory in action you can judge for yourself. Thanks for the story, though. It adds to the civil conversations taking place around this camp fire.

[paulmark3010]

If I want a sermon I'll go to church. I was waiting for Wakeman to pass the collection plate at the end of the article!

[BillytheKid]

I reject that article. To start with, Wakeman wrongly discredits "seeing is believing" with his statement "We also like to place far, far too much value on our personal experiences." What? Really? No, seeing really is believing Mr. Wakeman.

Next, Wakeman is showing ballistic gel for some tests and meat for other tests. By not having consistent comparisons, Wakeman's "evidence" is as unscientific as he claims the TKO is.

Further, statements such as "If you believe in TKO, a 12 gauge Foster slug is 13 times more deadly than a .223 Remington" are simply false. Nothing is more deadly than dead. Mathematically formulated, it is a given that you can only have Dead x 1 for each life.

Even further, statements such as "It would automatically lead you to believe the Foster slug is far superior to a 30-30. It would also characterize the .22 LR rimfire as worthless, though it outpenetrates our .223 Remington round, our 12 gauge Foster slug, and remains the most popular, successfully used mob assassination cartridge of all time." are also deception. While it is true that the .22lr is the most used assassination cartridge in the world, the .22lr weapon used in mob assassinations is the little pocket auto pistol. Being so tiny, the .22lr pistol makes it easy to come within arms reach of a mark, suddenly grab his hair with the free hand as you whip the .22 pistol out, cram it into his ear canal or eye socket and rapidly squeeze the trigger several times. The ear canal and the eye socket act as a funnel to guide the projectiles into the brain (don't ask me how I know this LOL). So, Wakeman's deception is to promote the .22lr as some kind of "more" deadly weapon. As if somehow it's ballistic qualities are what make it the most used for assassination.

To continue, the Doctors cited by Wakeman never shot anyone. It appears to me that, regardless of caliber, they were just given the worst case wounds because they were good surgeons.

Finally, Wakeman chose to give us a thin slice of a Civil War history lesson instead of citing the years of testing the different calibers that finally lead to the adoption of the .45 ACP. Which, I believe, substantiates the TKO.

No formula we have is foolproof, but Wakeman is a fool.

[wildcatter]

I reject that article. To start with, Wakeman wrongly discredits "seeing is believing" with his statement "We also like to place far, far too much value on our personal experiences." What? Really? No, seeing really is believing Mr. Wakeman.

Next, Wakeman is showing ballistic gel for some tests and meat for other tests. By not having consistent comparisons, Wakeman's "evidence" is as unscientific as he claims the TKO is.

Further, statements such as "If you believe in TKO, a 12 gauge Foster slug is 13 times more deadly than a .223 Remington" are simply false. Nothing is more deadly than dead. Mathematically formulated, it is a given that you can only have Dead x 1 for each life.

Even further, statements such as "It would automatically lead you to believe the Foster slug is far superior to a 30-30. It would also characterize the .22 LR rimfire as worthless, though it outpenetrates our .223 Remington round, our 12 gauge Foster slug, and remains the most popular, successfully used mob assassination cartridge of all time." are also deception. While it is true that the .22lr is the most used assassination cartridge in the world, the .22lr weapon used in mob assassinations is the little pocket auto pistol. Being so tiny, the .22lr pistol makes it easy to come within arms reach of a mark, suddenly grab his hair with the free hand as you whip the .22 pistol out, cram it into his ear canal or eye socket and rapidly squeeze the trigger several times. The ear canal and the eye socket act as a funnel to guide the projectiles into the brain (don't ask me how I know this LOL). So, Wakeman's deception is to promote the .22lr as some kind of "more" deadly weapon. As if somehow it's ballistic qualities are what make it the most used for assassination.

To continue, the Doctors cited by Wakeman never shot anyone. It appears to me that, regardless of caliber, they were just given the worst case wounds because they were good surgeons.

Finally, Wakeman chose to give us a thin slice of a Civil War history lesson instead of citing the years of testing the different calibers that finally lead to the adoption of the .45 ACP. Which, I believe, substantiates the TKO.

No formula we have is foolproof, but Wakeman is a fool.

Right-On Bill, placing too much in "Personal Evidence", sounds like a DemoRat to me. Hey, don't confuse me with the Facts crowd, are just to shrill for me and Yes, I can recognize real facts and dare to make sweeping statements. Like, Communism is bad for mankind, running with a sharp stick isn't a good idea, and fast large bullets, kill better than fast tiny bullets. And there is a way to quantify, albeit only somewhat, this last fact, that helps us in making decisions without having to spend Mega Bucks/Time discovering, what we already know to be true, and TKO can be a useful tool.

"A Thing is a Thing" = the Law of Identity and I don't care what the followers of Aristotle say about this matter, for I am not interested in how many Angels can dance on the head of a needle, I just want to stop, with amazing and immediate results, that charging Polar Bear, over there..

..t

[Stealthshooter]

I know just exactly how well my 450 kills deer.............it kills them DEAD! oh wait that doesn't count because it's my personal experience.

[BayouBob]

Who are you going to believe? The "expert" or your lying eyes!