Cannelure Tool and 230s

[Hoot]

Hoot, a suggestion here.

If the 1680 doesn't take off, with the heavier tapper crimp, take another five with you, using your improved tapper crimp AND the side crimp. Shoot'em both and you'll have a side-by-side comparison. If the powder doesn't light up then, 1680 will be relegated to 325's and heavier.

The Gunny just did this, with the LM project, and its what was needed to get 296 to finally take-off and the results were quite startling..

..t

I'm ahead of you Tim.

I have the above mentioned five using the XTP-M loaded to the cannelure, but I also have 25 other loads using the smooth walled 300gr SST.
All have the same charge of 1680 and loaded to 2.26 COL. Given their long length. At that COL, they leave less powder capacity than the XTP-M loaded to the cannelure. The break down is as follows:

The control group of 5 with just a moderate taper crimp.
5 utilizing the TiteNeck pre-loading process and the same moderate taper crimp.
Then it gets interesting.
5 using a single, moderate stab crimp, followed by a light taper crimp to get rid of the belling at the mouth.
5 using two moderate stab crimps, followed by a light taper crimp to get rid of the belling at the mouth.
5 using three moderate stab crimps, followed by a light taper crimp to get rid of the belling at the mouth.

I chose multiple moderate stab crimps instead of one heavy one to prevent the permanent scars that refuse to iron out from shooting and which then spend the life of the case acting like a permanent pinch point.

Everything's loaded and ready for when the range opens at noon. It's a Sunday morning thing...
I'm hoping to see the velocity established with the control group go up and the SD go down with the addition of the TiteNeck process and then with each additional stab crimp, but some of my recent experiments which never got written up have resulted in less than desirable rewards for the effort.

I'll get the results up as soon as I can compile them tomorrow afternoon. Setting up the FCD to produce the same degree of stab crimp in three successive depths was nothing short of a labor of love. Way too much fiddle-farting around and I've had plenty of experience setting them up. I somehow doubt that the 1680 will be working in the sweet zone, despite my efforts. It truly seems to want a heavier bullet than even the 300s, regardless of crimp, but I'd love to be wrong. The chance of stumbling upon an occasional truffle is what keeps me dreaming up these schemes.

Sorry for distracting from the original thread intent.

Hoot

[TacoTaco]

****UPDATE****

Took my little experiment to the range this morning. The results were not what I expected.

The control load was my standard go-to load:
250gr FTX
Cases trimmed to 1.90
38.0gr Lil Gun
COL 2.235
NO FLARE
NO CRIMP

Velocity:
2119
2127
2187
2151
2167
2136
2150
2143
2125
2152
AVG: 2145 SD:20.65

First Test:
Same load as above, but with a cannelure put on the bullet, and a Hornady Taper Crimp.
Velocity:
2112
2117
2106
2136
2124
2083
2111
2146
2129
2116
2099
2178
AVG: 2121 SD: 24.39

Test 2
Same load as above but with a heavier Taper Crimp
Velocity:
2101
2128
2174
2167
2205
AVG: 2155 SD: 40.77

Summary: This leaves me scratching my head. Why, with no crimp and no cannelure am I getting higher velocities and a better SD than I am with a cannelure and a crimp? Now, the results are close enough to make me come to the conclusion that the crimp and cannelure didn't make a lick of difference at all. But why? Any explanation would be appreciated!! Next test will be with 230FMJ's and the Legendre Crimp. Data to follow.

Oh, and both tests showed pretty good accuracy. Here's 10 shots with the Cannelured Bullets:

Here's 5 shots with the Cannelured Bullets with Heavy Taper Crimp:

Sorry for the long post. Again, any explanation as to why things went as they did would be appreciated!

[gunnut]

You may want to consider annealing your brass. I noticed some spring back with the 450LM project after 5 loads. I anneal the brass and had to back off my side crimp. The spring back could have contributed to some erratic performance in my latest tests.

[wildcatter]

You may want to consider annealing your brass. I noticed some spring back with the 450LM project after 5 loads. I anneal the brass and had to back off my side crimp. The spring back could have contributed to some erratic performance in my latest tests.

1+ Yuppers..

..t

[TacoTaco]

Many thanks fellas. Just put a Hornady Annealing Kit on order.

Looks like I'm back to the drawing board.....

[Hoot]

From my experience, the 250gr is close to a perfect match for the energy content per unit volume and burning rate of Lil Gun. If you were running a slower powder with the 250s, you would have experienced a greater difference. If you were running lighter bullets like the 200 FTX, you would have experienced a greater difference. If it were 20 degrees out, you would have experienced a greater difference. Forgive me if you said already, but what primers are you using? The only primer I ever had trouble with were CCI BR4s, which are just a higher QC version of their Small Rifle primer. They were too cool for Lil Gun. They do work great with Alliant 2400, but it is much faster then Lil Gun. Luckily, that didn't last but one trip to the range and an ensuing range report. I was advised by those with more experience to use the Remington 7 1/2 and have been doing so ever since. Winchester Small Rifle are almost as hot, followed by Federal GM205M. Those three were within a few fps of one another, all else being equal. I've never tried magnum primers.

Hoot

BTW, great groups!

[TacoTaco]

From my experience, the 250gr is close to a perfect match for the energy content per unit volume and burning rate of Lil Gun. If you were running a slower powder with the 250s, you would have experienced a greater difference. If you were running lighter bullets like the 200 FTX, you would have experienced a greater difference. If it were 20 degrees out, you would have experienced a greater difference. Forgive me if you said already, but what primers are you using? The only primer I ever had trouble with were CCI BR4s, which are just a higher QC version of their Small Rifle primer. They were too cool for Lil Gun. They do work great with Alliant 2400, but it is much faster then Lil Gun. Luckily, that didn't last but one trip to the range and an ensuing range report. I was advised by those with more experience to use the Remington 7 1/2 and have been doing so ever since. Winchester Small Rifle are almost as hot, followed by Federal GM205M. Those three were within a few fps of one another, all else being equal. I've never tried magnum primers.

Hoot

BTW, great groups!

Thanks!!!

The Primers I use are CCI400 SR. The only thing I have easy access to locally. Sometimes I can get my hands on Winchesters, but that's few and far between.

[Hoot]

Thanks!!!

The Primers I use are CCI400 SR. The only thing I have easy access to locally. Sometimes I can get my hands on Winchesters, but that's few and far between.

That seems to be the case everywhere. One week it's feast, then next it's famine. Right now, the local reloading shop has just about every primer made in stock. Not long ago, it was just the opposite. Cabelas, though not the cheapest date in town, was brimming with primers the last time I was there. Go figure...

Definitely set your sights on a hotter primer. They do make a difference though like yourself, all points being equal, I'm surprised by your results. I do know that with the Rem 7 1/2, back in May, I characterized the two bottles of Lil Gun I bought (same lot) to see where it fell in terms of performance. I used my gold standard load of 250gr FTX, 38gr Lil Gun, 2.26 COL taper crimp to .476 and they were their normal 2225 +/- fps. I just checked my range log and it was only 60 degrees that day. Today, it was 94 degrees and I'd bet they would have picked up another 25fps easily. Folks will differ with me on this, but those results were with 1-Fired brass. Again from experience, my velocities and SD fall off when the brass are more like 4 or 5-fired, not to mention the groups open up slightly. I'm going to root through my brass and separate out as many > 4-fired cases I can find that don't have stab scars. Half I will anneal and half I won't. Then prep them as fastidiously as I normally do and see if they fly differently. Might give some insight into the worth of annealing. Unfortunately, it'ssupposed to be 95 degrees again tomorrow and the range doesn't open until high noon.

Was heading to the sack, but will detour down to the shop for a quick inventory check.

I don't own an annealing kit, but after annealing my share of 300 OSSM brass, I've developed an effective manual setup utilizing a drill, Lee lock-stud and little timer circuit I built out of a timer IC, couple of discreet components and an LED. The key is to use a torch with a small pencil point flame. Big, hot torches are hard to control. I've been meaning to pick up a Harbor Freight spot welder and fashion a set of half-moon tips for it. The ultimate in controllability. Before I drop that kind of dough-re-me, I want to see if it helps in this caliber with just a pencil torch.

Hoot

[TacoTaco]

Hoot- Can you please describe what you mean by taper crimping down to .476? The few times I've used the Hornady Taper Crimp Die, I never measured anything to check my crimp. If you could give me a better understanding of how you Taper Crimp, I'd appreciate it. When I did it for my experiment, I noticed that the case was getting compressed .5-.75" down from the mouth. I didn't want to go any further than that....

I have 50pcs of virgin 450 brass I've been saving for a special occasion....I think I may try those with the 230's and see how that goes. Anyone have a good starting load for 230FMJs??? It doesn't need to be hot, just a safe load to work up from. For some reason I thought I remembered there being safety issues with 230's when using an undercharged load.

T

[Hoot]

Hoot- Can you please describe what you mean by taper crimping down to .476? The few times I've used the Hornady Taper Crimp Die, I never measured anything to check my crimp. If you could give me a better understanding of how you Taper Crimp, I'd appreciate it. When I did it for my experiment, I noticed that the case was getting compressed .5-.75" down from the mouth. I didn't want to go any further than that....

I have 50pcs of virgin 450 brass I've been saving for a special occasion....I think I may try those with the 230's and see how that goes. Anyone have a good starting load for 230FMJs??? It doesn't need to be hot, just a safe load to work up from. For some reason I thought I remembered there being safety issues with 230's when using an undercharged load.

T

What works for the 250 works for the 230 as well. 38gr of Lil Gun is as good as any point to start.

WRT the taper crimp. It is a tapering cylinder. The further in, the narrower it gets. The mouth of the case being the furthest part in, gets the most taper. I've never done a CerroSafe cast of that die, so I can't characterize it's taper precisely. I've never seen much sign of it contacting the case anywhere but at and just slightly below the mouth. Certainly not 1/2 to 3/4 inch down from the mouth. Not sure what's going on there. In an attempt to share load data among ourselves, we typically measure the amount of taper imparted right at the edge of the mouth. .476 would approximate a factory crimp. When in doubt, resize a fired case and measure the mouth OD before seating a bullet. Mine turn out exactly .475 and stays that for .25 inches down from the mouth. Then it starts to gradually widen. IMHO, I believe that's the area of the case that the taper crimp should act upon. My case wall thickness is the same through that area as well, so a bullet that is the same diameter from the ogive to the heel will stretch that area the same amount.

Any theories or observations beyond that move into the arena of experimental and interpretive. I doubt the manufacturers intend the crimp to serve to make up for an improper powder and bullet weight match. More so to simply keep the bullet in place when an autoloading rifle strips the cartridge and slams it into the chamber. Through experimentation, we have observed that the degree of crimp applied can help move the two factors in a positive direction when they have a slight mismatch as I mentioned earlier. The price for that practice when taken to extremes can be distorted bullets and/or permanently thinned out case mouths (where the taper is applied the greatest). The latter being a drawback I've only recently stumbled upon when I tried to see just how much positive direction could be achieved with bullets that were too light for the powder being used. The brass involved in that experiment are now permanently thinned at the mouth and there's nothing that can be done to fix them. They are now relegated to being used with a stab crimp.

While on that subject. Though I'm not fond of the permanent ring scar left by stab crimps, if one reuses the brass and crimps in the same spot, then no harm, no foul. They will however obfuscate tension related experiments when they are reused with a taper crimp since the ring causes the tension to be greater as the bullet being tested has to squeeze past that choke point when seating. Again I stress that if the bullet is a good match for the powder, these finer points lose their impact upon overall performance.

Bottom line would be to measure the amount of taper you are applying at the mouth to make sure you are not over crimping them. I say that because of you reporting that you observed taper crimp die marks further down the case than I'm accustomed to seeing. Perhaps I've been so tuned into observing the mouth that I didn't pay attention to further down and that's normal. Anyone else seeing taper die marks that far down the case?

Hoot