Chasing accuracy issues.

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Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby Decoy Defender » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:01 pm

Hello all, been lurking around here for a little bit trying to sniff out an answer to my problem without asking for it but I'm not really sure on what I should be asking... Problem is, I'm not the reloader, my father is. I know enough about it to get me by...I think.. Anyway, My dads been reloading all types of calibers for 40 years or so and I have the utmost confidence in him, but when it comes to this 450B he's been getting his A handed to him... We've been all over the spectrum with load charges and bullet weight combos. The best we've been able to get is just OK I'd say for a cheap Ruger American (22" barrel), about 2" groups. We're using a Hornady Die set, horandy brass and starline brass, 225,250,300 and 300mag bullets all from hornady. The 300 have shot the worst by far. LG has been the propellant for most of the testing, with some H110 being used in the early stages.
We're both good shooters, and he's a great reloader but I'm at a loss for accuracy. As much as I didn't want to, I went a bought some Factory Hornady Black to make sure it wasn't something with the gun, and it shot much better than our reloads. It grouped like I how would expect our reloads to. I've put a Boyds stock on it, with the blocks bedded in. Barrel is free floating of course. Glass is A Leupold VX freedom 3x9. We're probably approaching the 400 round count or so in this gun and are struggling to get a consistent load to shoot from it. Thoughts?
Thanks boys
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Re: Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby Hoot » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:27 pm

Welcome Aboard Double D!

Two things. Primer make and model? Are you expanding the mouths before seating the bullets? Primers from my experience in order of preference: Rem 7 1/2, WSR, CCI 450
My experience with expanding the mouths was that it A) Is not necessary with the Hornady seater and B) Has a negative impact upon velocity SD, which can impact accuracy. Note: I've had good accuracy without small SD numbers. 50 or better will suffice with the 450b rainbow trajectory.

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Re: Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby teddy_d » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:51 am

Proper taper crimp seems to be semi critical.
COL is something to consider, I've been conservative and replicated factory when using FTX bullets, or 0.010 shorter.
Charge can be critical per rifle/round combination.
Temperature, humidity, barrel heat....

Here's something to think about. If you have already fired a "fouling round" the only shot that matters is the very first round you send down range. Every round after that is potentially a follow up shot in a hunting scenario.

My neighbor has had great success with almost every handload in his ruger american that is stock. 100 yards typically produces 2.5 or less, some days he shoots better than others.

You can't duplicate what the factory is producing. You might come up with something better?
There are at least 6 factory options available so for hunting you might just need to use it e of those. Use a basic handload for plinking.

Perspective is everything :geek:

Happy hunting :mrgreen:

But then again I'm using an AR.
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Re: Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby Hoot » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:56 pm

Another thing. Regardless whether you're testing for accuracy, how well they cycle or whatever, you need to include a chrongraph in the picture and keep range notes to go with those targets. Trying to test reloads without a chrony is like trying to determine best gas mileage with just an odometer and no speedometer. Some things run better at certain speeds.

...just sayin'

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Re: Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby Decoy Defender » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:01 am

Hoot wrote:Welcome Aboard Double D!

Two things. Primer make and model? Are you expanding the mouths before seating the bullets? Primers from my experience in order of preference: Rem 7 1/2, WSR, CCI 450
My experience with expanding the mouths was that it A) Is not necessary with the Hornady seater and B) Has a negative impact upon velocity SD, which can impact accuracy. Note: I've had good accuracy without small SD numbers. 50 or better will suffice with the 450b rainbow trajectory.

Hoot

We're primarily using WSR primers. Have tried others such as CCI and Remington's. None seam to make a difference. As far as case mouth expansion, he says that he is "a little bit" only what the factory die is doing.. Says the bullet goes in easy, but it's not like it drops into the mouth of the case.

With my lack of knowledge, and the research i've done, I'm leaning towards a crimp issue. As stated before, i know enough to be dangerous.. I know the round headspaces on the mouth of the case and you can't really put much of a crimp on a bullet that doesn't have a caunular right?? I think after reading this. I've heard of a total of three types of crimps? a FCD(factory crimp die) a stab crimp, and side crimp... Can you explain them for me? Is there a difference?
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Re: Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby Decoy Defender » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:07 am

Only reason, I'm leaning towards a crimp issue, is that we've tried just about everything else. Also, we did put rounds through a chrono before, but that was with a defective gun back in the spring time. Have not done anything with our current set up. Next time out, I'll be sure to set it up. If I remember right, we were getting velocities ranging from 2100 to over 2500, but that was with different powder and bullet combos. Speaking of velocity, have you found that there is a max speed that the FTX bullets will begin to DE-stabilize? We've often wondered if we were pushing them too fast. The current load that's next to go through the gun is 38gr of LG with a 250ftx and 38.5Gr LG with same bullet, and i'm assuming WSR primer.
Another thing to note is that the rounds are being fired one at a time, removing one from the box and then shooting, not being placed in the magazine and cycled through the gun. I've read where some movement can occur in the bullet from the recoil/inertia
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Re: Chasing accuracy issues.

Postby Hoot » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:55 pm

Decoy Defender wrote:Only reason, I'm leaning towards a crimp issue, is that we've tried just about everything else. Also, we did put rounds through a chrono before, but that was with a defective gun back in the spring time. Have not done anything with our current set up. Next time out, I'll be sure to set it up. If I remember right, we were getting velocities ranging from 2100 to over 2500, but that was with different powder and bullet combos. Speaking of velocity, have you found that there is a max speed that the FTX bullets will begin to DE-stabilize? We've often wondered if we were pushing them too fast. The current load that's next to go through the gun is 38gr of LG with a 250ftx and 38.5Gr LG with same bullet, and i'm assuming WSR primer.
Another thing to note is that the rounds are being fired one at a time, removing one from the box and then shooting, not being placed in the magazine and cycled through the gun. I've read where some movement can occur in the bullet from the recoil/inertia


Sounds like you got the right approach there. WSR are good choices. From my experience in my 1:24 twist, 20" barrel is that 37gr of LG pushing the 250 FTX, produces the same velocity as factory ammo. Older LG took 38gr to produce the same. The velocity range you cited sounds appropriate for the bullet weight range you also cited. The 450b can't produce enough velocity to destabilize FTX bullets. I've been reloading them for like 9 years and never managed to do that. You don't have to chase every last fps out of FTX bullets. they're plenty lethal at modest velocities and often have the best accuracy not run up to the top of safe pressure.

The amount of consistent crimp applied is pretty important. I advise folks to A) Measure the resultant crimp diameter with a micrometer (not caliper) as close to the lip of the mouth as you can get, B) For bullets with cannelures or driving bands, when seated so that the cannelure or driving band groove is almost buried below the mouth, a crimp diameter of .474 is a good choice, C) For smooth sided bullets or if you seat cannelured bullets so that the cannelure is not mostly below the mouth, then a little less crimp is in order, along the lines of .475-476. You don't want to squeeze the bullets into an hourglass figure.

Cannelure seating example: (almost buried below the mouth)

Image

With a stable bench and good bench technique, the 200, 225 and 250 FTX over LG are all three capable of MOA or better at 100 yds but you need to use an optic with enough power to resolve MOA aiming at 100 yds. While I generally use a 3-9 for northwoods deer hunting, I test reloads with a 24x scope. I'm not there to test my eyes. I'm there to test my loads. ;)

FWIW, I also load rounds being tested for accuracy, one at a time. If I'm testing reliable cycling, then I load 5.

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