Brass Life Cycle Study

[oldmanjeffers]

Good Info Hoot!

If you don't mind,I'd like to share my newest finds here.

I loaded up 50 new 284/450 cases that were trimmed to 1.703 and after they were fired once, The longest case length was 1.701 and the smallest was 1.698

These measurements were taken before a pass through the FL size die.

I used the 225ftx with 38 grs of W296 and another pass through the FL die, Then a side crimp followed by a taper crimp.

With an OAL of 2.150 and this case length my bullet was just short of touching the rifling when chambered

All said and done I've got fifty "fire-formed" cases averaging 1.699.5 (1.700) in length, A very consistent case mouth ID of .455, A consistent case OD at the mouth of .476

BTW, These loads were fun and accurate at 200 yards, Recoil was slightly less then the factory ammo but did put nice dents in the gong, My 225FTX lilgun loads, Very similar to these, Were blowing up on the gong with little to no penetration.

[Hoot]

As an Engineering Technician since 1981, I have learned that the only thing worse than having an error occur during a test is not reporting it to protect one's pride and reputation. I have striven to maintain the highest scientific test standards I can possibly achieve, but the Human Factor caught up with me this past weekend. I have been as guilty as any number of other members when I've rolled my eyes when one of the members has strongly stressed, "Be careful and Be safe." Reloading and Amateur Smithing are serious pursuits and I have always approached them with respect for the hazards of both. I am not reporting a catastrophic error, if but only for the grace of God. I was spared serious injury and my loss is just the cost of 50 new .284 brass and the powder, primers and bullets that went into them.

What happened:
Last Friday, I picked up a bag of Winchester .284 brass to adapt to 450b. I spent Saturday evening and late into the night prepping them up to the point where I drop the charges and seat the bullets. I got up Sunday morning with the intent of getting them ready to go to the range as soon as it opened to fire form the brass. I had the powder dispenser still set up from a previous reloading session, so I dropped the charges, seated the bullets and loaded up the truck to go to the range. For the first time ever, I actually took my laptop PC and calipers with me to record the case length changes noted in my previous post right on the spot. With 50 cases to run through, I was too concerned with shooting and recording my length readings to notice what should have been several problematic indicators I usually inspect for. It wasn't until I read oldmanjeffer's post about his results, that I decided to audit my process that lead me to such different results.

I had briefly made a mental note of the strong recoil when I was shooting, but dismissed it as just being the newness of that load. I had noted the total lack of sooting on any of the cases, which up til then had never happened with my reloads, but again attributed it to the new load. I uncharacteristically did not notice the strong extractor and ejector printing into the heads. I even did not notice that I had to change my cheek weld to get the scope to open up, which turns out to be because the scope shifted position about 3/4 inch. Something that had not happened in the first 350 loads through the gun. This is all very embarrassing to report, but important to share with folks. It can happen to you. Distraction destroys.

At home, walking through the process, the cause was an enigma until I took the cap off of the powder hopper on my Lyman DPS 1200 and looked inside. In that flash of realization that makes your stomach fall, I realized the last reloading session was not Lil Gun, but Alliant 2400 for a 200gr FTX. A faster powder, who's pressure stacked up quickly with cool firing CCI BR4s from past experience. I had not taken the chrony to the range since I was using thin skinned Berry bullets for fire forming and didn't want to put a jacket shard into the display. So, I'll never know how fast they were actually traveling. I have only oldmanjeffer's results to compare mine with, but I now suspect my case shortening was the result of excessive pressure.

I hope you all don't discount any of my other work or future efforts. I have always believed in being up front with folks about my failures, not just heaping on the accomplishments. I think it gives validity to one's efforts. My penitence will be to pick up another bag and have at it again, albeit a little older and a little wiser.

Hoot

[deskjockey]

Wow Hoot, thank God you didnt get hurt!

People make mistakes, don't be too hard on yourself, hell with all of the work you put into this round, you deserve a big thank you from all of us.

Let's just chalk this one up the reload gremlins and move forward

Let me be clear about this, I am not making light of the mistake, or the possible ramifications of it, we all need to be careful, but let this be a lesson to all us to NEVER fall into that hole called complacency.

Measure 30 times cut once.

[Siringo]

Glad this did not turn out catastrophic. Unnerving!!!!

Something else that may have prevented a more serious problem was the putty soft Berry Bullets. You had made mention of not reaming your cases. On my 450B cases -- fired, measure .452" I.D. That is on the minumum side to release the bullet. .453" would be OK. With the 284 cases, you mentioned after firing they measured .446" I.D. That means the bullet shank had to be that size to release from the case. The bullet (putty plug theory) swelled/bumped upon firing and really sealed the end of the case. Probably why you did not see any soot marks and why they did not group at 100 yards. If this had been a jacketed bullet, bad things could have happened.

Glad you're OK and thanks for sharing this.

[bighole]

Not to say mistakes should be taken lightly , but , a man that doesn't make a mistake is a man that is not working.

[oldmanjeffers]

These Guys have pretty much said it all Hoot, I'm glad you didn't get hurt.

I think you did the right thing by coming on here and posting what you did, Thank you!

One rule I have to share with everyone that works for me is If I can't physically hold the container, Box, Whatever it is and read the label out loud, I stop and figure out what I've got in my hands before moving forward with any step of the process, If I can't figure it out it goes in the garden (if it's powder) or in the trash.

[wildcatter]

Ding, Ding, Ding..your stock just went way up with me. BigHole said it best, .."a man that doesn't make a mistake is a man that is not working".

Now, for some Subjective Hyperboly, .."pretty tough system, don't you think"?

Now, how about showing the base of the rim, so these guys can see the reaction, and how about a web expansion measurement, with the before too.


Thanks for sharing..t

[Hoot]

Not to belabor this part of the study, but per wildcatter's request, here's the look of too much case pressure. I did my best to accent the image lighting to accentuate the points

Extractor Shaving & Ejector Printing



.001" Supra-Web Swell

[wildcatter]

Not to belabor this part of the study, but per wildcatter's request, here's the look of too much case pressure. I did my best to accent the image lighting to accentuate the points

Extractor Shaving & Ejector Printing

[ http://i47.tinypic.com/2ypngb8.jpg ]

.001" Supra-Web Swell

[ http://i48.tinypic.com/npkqdy.jpg ]

There they are guys! Thanks to Hoot, everybody now knows what the base of the cartridge "Should Not" look like or better yet, when to start re-evaluating your loading sequence. This is a very good thing Hoot has done for us, look those bases over carefully. If you start getting bases that have these marks, something is wrong and you are about to have an accident and at the least, break something. A number of things can cause them, including, but not limited too, to much powder, the wrong powder or all manor of other things, but either way, if your start to show these signs (And to be sure, there are other signs you must look for, as well and if you don't know what they are, then your not reading enough), you've got to "Stop Shooting", determine the problem and "Pull Down" the remaining loads, destroying the powder, if you're not sure what it is, and "Start Over".

Thanks Hoot, you've done great work for these guys, on a plethora of levels, my hats off to you..t

[slash2]

Slash -- what is your load?

Sorry for the late reply Siringo, I hadn't checked the notify me box and didn't know there was more on the subject.

My cases have suffered through all of my load testing, some quite hot and many with deep side crimps. My only loses have been to the weeds. I use the Hornady dies.

Hoot, I admire your openess and honesty, it only enhances your credibility. I've always felt that any mistake that is either painful and/or embarrassing without leaving permanent damage is a good mistake.